Ishmael Adibuah: Hello, everyone, and welcome to the latest edition of Ad Petri Sedem, where we discuss topics relating to Catholicism and modern culture. This podcast is under the patronage of Saints Peter and Paul and Pope Saint John Paul II.
My name is Ishmael Adibuah, I’m the chief editor of the Substack, and we’re delighted to have your company today. You can find us online on Substack. We also have a YouTube and Instagram channel, which I will provide links to as well.
It is my pleasure and honor to welcome Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone, who is the Archbishop of San Francisco. I brought him on today to discuss his experience with the Church’s liturgy and his founding of the Benedict XVI Institute. But first, I will just go over his brief bio.
Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone is the Archbishop of San Francisco, a native of San Diego with Sicilian roots. He earned a bachelor’s degree in philosophy from the University of San Diego before studying in Rome at the Pontifical Gregorian University. There, he received a degree in sacred theology and later a doctorate in canon law.
Ordained a priest in 1982, his career has balanced pastoral work, including as a pastor on the US-Mexico border, with high-level Roman curial service. Notably, he spent seven years at the Vatican, serving on the Apostolic Signatura, the Church’s highest court.
His episcopal journey began in 2002, when he was appointed by Pope Saint John Paul II as auxiliary Bishop of San Diego. He was later appointed by Pope Benedict XVI as Bishop of Oakland in 2009 and installed as the Archbishop of San Francisco in 2012. He’s an active member of several United States Conference of Catholic Bishops committees focusing on family life and canon law. On a personal note, the Archbishop is a lifelong jazz enthusiast and enjoys swimming, hiking, and following professional sports.
Your Excellency, welcome to the Substack.
Archbishop Cordileone: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Ishmael Adibuah: I went over your bio, and reading up on you before this interview, I found it interesting that while you were in Rome studying at the Gregorian University, you were a student of Cardinal Burke, who we had on the podcast recently. How was that for you?
Archbishop Cordileone: Yes, I’m very grateful, and I’ve been blessed to know him for a very long time. When I was doing my canon law studies, I lived at the graduate house for American diocesan priests, the Casa Santa Maria, which is right next door to the Gregorian University. The Gregorian has an additional course that some students choose to take to specialize in tribunal work, specialization in jurisprudence.
Then-Monsignor Burke would come from La Crosse, Wisconsin, his diocese, to teach one of those seminars, and he would stay at the Casa. So when I began my canon law studies, I got to know him. Then I took that course, so I had him as a professor as well. That was a great blessing. I got to know him, we became friends, and I’ve stayed in touch with him ever since.
Ishmael Adibuah: Of course, and I know recently you were at the shrine he founded, the Shrine of Our Lady of Guadalupe in La Crosse, for a special Mass. We’ll talk about that in a moment. But just relating to your journey to the priesthood, did you always have an interest in canon law?
Archbishop Cordileone: No, that’s not what I would have elected to do. I would have liked something more biblical or historical. I was interested in Biblical studies. I did the first year of the Biblical theology degree, actually, before I was ordained a priest. Or maybe something in the area of church history or patristics.
But I was ordained in 1982, and the revised Code of Canon Law was promulgated in 1983. So bishops all over the world were sending priests to study the new code. Being recently ordained and having studied already at the Gregorian, I was tapped to return to the Gregorian to get my doctoral degree in canon law, to be well versed in what was then the new Code of Canon Law.
Ishmael Adibuah: Of course. There’s a phrase, something along the lines of “You go where you’re sent.”
Archbishop Cordileone: Yes, “Seek nothing, turn nothing down.” And it was providential, as it turns out. I think canon law was a good field for me. I didn’t have any special interest in law, but my mind is good with that way of thinking. It’s very logical. And the way it was taught at the Gregorian, they teach it in a theological way. It was really kind of like studying ecclesiology, which is probably the area of theology that most interests me. So it turned out to be providential. I was well-suited for it, and it’s also been very practical with the things I’ve been asked to do ever since.
Ishmael Adibuah: Of course, and even in your service as a bishop, I imagine you have to use your canon law experience a bit.
Archbishop Cordileone: Yes, certainly.
Ishmael Adibuah: Let’s move on to your interest in the liturgy. This is what led you to found the Benedict XVI Institute in 2013. As a bishop and a priest, I imagine the liturgy is of utmost importance to you, but was this of particular interest to you as a young priest? The liturgy.
Archbishop Cordileone: Oh, yes, definitely. It’s one of the things that inspired my vocation—the beauty of the Church’s ceremonies and how deeply rooted they are in tradition. I’ve always had a great love of tradition. And I realized I had the need to do something practical to enhance the quality of the way the Mass is celebrated in our parishes. That was really the original vision behind the founding of the Benedict XVI Institute. We have so many treasures that we’ve been ignoring for far too long. I think we need to retrieve those treasures and apply them in a way that can speak to people today to revive the beauty, the mystery, and the awe of how we should be worshiping.
Ishmael Adibuah: Definitely. There seems to be a sense of recovery of the sacred, of the transcendent, which, as you said, led you to found this Institute. How did you get this Institute going?
Archbishop Cordileone: Good question. I had some assistants in my Chancery office write articles of incorporation and get it chartered as a nonprofit corporation. A young man who was working for the archdiocese at the time was able to assist me in setting up a website and doing some initial organization. I formed a board. We were still trying to envision exactly what we were supposed to be doing, and we had some fits and starts. The young man then moved away, and it went into a hiatus for a while.
Then, I had known Maggie Gallagher for some years; we worked on the marriage issue here in California together. I knew what a brilliant mind she has, and her practical skills in organizing. I thought this might fit her skill set. So I asked her to become the executive director of the organization. We reformed the board, and we got a lot more cohesion and a more clarified vision, and it sort of took off from there.
Ishmael Adibuah: Yes, I’ve heard of Miss Gallagher, and she’s done some amazing work with the Institute. Regarding the founding, was it about the liturgical life of your archdiocese, or was it just an overall analysis that something is missing in American Catholic life?
Archbishop Cordileone: Everywhere I went, I experienced that. The original vision has taken twists and turns. I envisioned it initially as something for liturgical formation for laypeople exercising ministries in the Mass, but I wanted to put an emphasis on music and formation of parish musicians, so they understand the Church’s repertoire and how music has to be integrated with the liturgy.
What happened, though, was that we sort of serendipitously went on a tangential route, trying to reclaim the high sacred art and music of the Church’s tradition. That began with the Mass of the Americas, which I commissioned. And then we began commissioning with our composer in residence, Frank LaRocca. It’s polyphony in the tradition of polyphony, but with a bit of a more modern musical touch.
Next, we started celebrating a Memorial Mass in November for people who died homeless. I asked Frank to compose a Requiem Mass for the homeless... So we were trying to reclaim this high sacred tradition of music, and then in other branches of art as well... The Mass of the Americas, Frank adapted it for a parish choir, so it’s a bit pared down, but it’s the same music and can be sung by any decent parish choir. And it’s available online.
We’re focusing right now on our project, Guadalupe 2031. A lot of people don’t know Pope Francis asked for a nine-year novena to prepare for the 500th anniversary of the apparition of Our Lady at Tepeyac in 2031. So we’re trying to promote awareness of that. We’ve scheduled celebrations of the Mass of the Americas in different prominent venues, such as the Shrine of Our Lady of Guadalupe in La Crosse, and most prominently, at the Basilica of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico City on October 7th.
There’s another project we’re working on as well, the Martyrs of Communism Project. We’re concerned about how young people are thinking that socialism is a good thing. People’s memories are very short. I’ve been told that one billion people are living under totalitarian regimes right now in the world.
And then we’re moving on, getting more back on track to the original vision: to provide practical resources to parishes: the Reverent Liturgy Project. We’ll be producing some YouTube videos on the Church’s vision for liturgical renewal, and have pastors who have moved their parishes in this direction share their practical experience. I’m very excited about it, for the sake of the salvation of souls, the sanctification of God’s people, and the glory of God.
Ishmael Adibuah: Absolutely. Listening to you talk, it has to be said, this sense of a healthy inculturation into the Church’s music and liturgy has been a point of debate. On one hand, people say it should all be about inculturation, and on the other side, say no inculturation at all. What you’ve demonstrated with your Institute is that there can be a healthy inculturation with outside cultures while being faithful to the Church’s tradition, inviting people to delve deeper into the mysteries of the Faith.
Archbishop Cordileone: The reality is, the Church has always been inculturated. People don’t understand what inculturation means now. They think it means you take what’s in the culture and introduce it into the liturgy. That’s not what it is.
I’ll never forget, almost six years ago, when I was with a group of bishops for our ad limina visit. Cardinal Robert Sarah was the prefect of the Dicastery for Divine Worship at the time. The bishops got on this topic of inculturation, with the idea that we need to introduce their dances and style of music. He kept his head down, just listening. At a certain point... he lifted his head and said, “Inculturation isn’t taking what’s in the culture and introducing it into the Mass. Inculturation is introducing Jesus Christ into the culture. And when that happens, everything changes.”
Then he put his head back down. It was like the oracle of the prophet; no more to be said.
But it’s what the Church has always done. When I asked Frank LaRocca to compose the Mass of the Americas, I gave him that example. I said, “Look at what the Franciscan missionaries did here in California. They built a church. That’s a traditional Catholic church, but it’s in a way that reflects the local culture.” So much so that it begins to transform the culture. Mission architecture is a very popular form of architecture here in California. Secular buildings use it.
So, what the Franciscan missionaries did with the sense of sight, with architecture, is what I asked him to do with the sense of hearing through music. That kind of inculturation is real inculturation.
Ishmael Adibuah: Absolutely. So for anyone listening, inculturation is this sense of incorporating Christ into the culture, and by that, changing the whole culture.
Focusing on the Institute, its core vision from your website is that “the greatest art, the greatest liturgy, is yet to come.” In an age that some see as one of decline, what gives you this sense of hope and optimism, and how can the Benedict XVI Institute contribute to that hope?
Archbishop Cordileone: We might hear a criticism: “Why are you focusing on art and music? There’s so much going wrong in our society.” But at the time of the Renaissance, it was a very traumatic period of history. The Protestant Reformation, the Wars of Religion, etc. The Church focused on the arts as a way of unifying, healing, and sanctifying. Some of the most beautiful art and music the Church has produced came from that era.
The arts form the soul of the people. That’s why, in our Martyrs of Communism project, we hasten to point out how totalitarian regimes get control. Who are the first ones they go after? The artists, the poets, the philosophers, the priests. These are the ones who form the soul of the society. A totalitarian regime, to get control, has to strip the people of their souls. So it’s precisely now that we need to create more sacred beauty for the glory of God.
What gives me hope is a growing interest in the faith among young people. Young men, especially, are interested in Christianity.
So I’m encouraged by the interest of young men in Christianity, and that young people are desiring what is truly substantive. I had an interesting observation at the National Eucharistic Congress we held last year in July. It was a huge success because it was very spiritually focused. This was the first major Church event in our country, envisioned and led by what we refer to as the John Paul II generation. The younger they are, the more liturgically traditional they lean. They’re all very solid liturgically. I think maybe because Pope Benedict has a profound influence on them.
When they discover this tradition, they’re drawn in by beauty. Truth comes along with it. It’s an honest conversation. They accept the fullness of the Catholic faith. They’re also influenced by John Paul II’s Theology of the Body. I think young people want authenticity. I believe they see authenticity there, and they hunger for it.
Ishmael Adibuah: I remember the Mass of the Americas that you celebrated at the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception some years ago. I remember your homily. You said something along the lines of that there may be outside criticisms about how much we’re investing in the arts. And you mentioned, referencing the anointing of Jesus at Bethany before his Passion, that while the poor lack material needs, their spiritual needs will always be fulfilled by the Catholic Church nearest to them. They have all this art inside a church, and they don’t need to spend any money on it. It is there for them. This is why we invest so much in the arts—we need to form souls.
Archbishop Cordileone: Yes, first of all, I would say the Church expends far more resources in helping the poor than in the area of the arts, which is right and just. I always think of that famous homily of St. John Chrysostom, when he told the people who donated to enhance the liturgy, "That’s good, but don’t ignore the poor.”
But yes, we also do need to invest in beauty. What you were speaking about is a story I shared... Our new cathedral was dedicated in 1971. There were protests about the expenditure. They said, “Can’t this money be spent to help the poor?”
It was maybe a year or two after that... they had a gathering to speak about poverty, and they invited Dorothy Day to be a speaker. During the Q&A, someone said, “Isn’t it ironic that we’re having this conference to help the poor... when all the money spent on this church could have been used to help the poor?”
And Dorothy Day said, “There are many kinds of hunger. There’s a hunger for bread, and we have to give the poor bread. But there’s also a hunger for beauty. And this is a beautiful place to which everyone has access, from the mayor of the city to the poorest person on the street.”
We dignify the poor when we give them access to beauty. Everyone has a hunger for beauty. My mother grew up in the Great Depression. She said she always enjoyed going back in the afternoon for benediction or vespers because the music was so beautiful. She couldn’t afford to go to a concert, but here she had the gift of beautiful music. We dignify the poor by giving them beauty.
Ishmael Adibuah: Staying on the topic of beauty, Pope Benedict XVI made it an emphasis of his pontificate. Why did you choose him as the namesake of the Institute?
Archbishop Cordileone: Cardinal Ratzinger, then Pope Benedict XVI, has been such a shining light in what is true liturgical renewal. He’s really a reference point and inspiration for so many of us. He’s given us a lot of deep insights about the Church’s liturgy, and also with a great pastoral sensitivity.
I’ve always been impressed by him. A brilliant mind... that can synthesize volumes of deep thought in pithy sentences, but also with a great pastoral sensitivity. I think that’s exactly what we need. We need that intellectual depth, but in a very pastoral way, to help build up the body of believers.
Ishmael Adibuah: Yes, of course. And especially... there’s ever more need for a pastoral sensitivity in... a healthy inculturation towards tradition and offering young people the tradition they so crave.
How have you seen the reception, among Catholics and non-Catholics alike, about the work that you’re doing?
Archbishop Cordileone: Well, the ones connected with us love it. I’m hoping we can build up that sense of continuity that Pope Benedict emphasized so much: that the Council be read in the light of a continuity of the tradition. The concept of “before and after” has inflicted a profound wound on the church. It’s going to take a long time for this wound to heal. There should be no “before and after.” There should be continuity in the tradition.
The liturgy... attains a certain classic form. If it’s classic, it’s withstood the test of time. So it’s beautiful in every age and in every culture. We have a now reordered form of the Mass, but that should be informed by the continuity of the tradition, which would happen if we obey what the Council actually asked us to do.
Ishmael Adibuah: Right. This Institute seems to be at the forefront of the Eucharistic revival. How can it contribute to that Eucharistic revival?
Archbishop Cordileone: To me, this is the basic problem: we need to revive a sense of the sacred. We’ve lost the sense of the sacred. And this plays itself out in a whole wide range of ways. Marriage vows used to be considered sacred. We used to speak about holy matrimony. Human life itself...
It has to begin in our worship. If we don’t have the most important point of sacredness—the worship of God—if it’s not there, we’re not going to have it anywhere else in life.
For example, how people dress for mass. All the talking that goes on in church. This really alarms me... After mass, people start talking inside of church. That never used to be. Church was a place to be quiet. So, reclaiming silence. Dressing in a dignified way.
I love to tell this story about an African-American woman who grew up in southern Louisiana during the Jim Crow laws. As poor as they were, they had a special set of clothes they reserved for going to church on Sunday. So if they could dress well for church, we all can. There’s no excuse.
Ishmael Adibuah: And in a society as affluent as ours is, that leaves little room for any excuses.
Archbishop Cordileone: So, trying to reclaim the sense of the sacred, I think, is the critical thing. That’s what I think the Benedict XVI Institute is contributing to... We can be cooperators with God, building a society that is conducive to human flourishing. It can only happen if we recognize God at the center of our society.
Ishmael Adibuah: In the ordinary form of the mass... There’s one greeting I like a lot: “Go in peace, glorifying the Lord by your life.” We’ve been at mass, fed by the Eucharist. How can the liturgy inform the culture?
Archbishop Cordileone: Yes. Well, I gave the example of mission church architecture. Think of the example of music. How the notation of Gregorian chant then developed the whole tradition of Western musical theory.
Most of all, though, it’s when people are well formed in their faith—and the primary point of formation... is Sunday worship—they’re going to be an influence for the values of the gospel in their workplaces, their schools, the communities with which they interact.
Ishmael Adibuah: We talk about active participation all the time. The liturgy is supposed to assist in that.
Archbishop Cordileone: We also need to reclaim what that really means. Of course, it’s Pope Pius X who introduced the term, participatio actuosa. He wanted to see the mass as something that the people participate in with heart, mind, and soul, not just in an exterior, superficial way.
Now, however, I think a lot of people have the idea of active participation that everyone has to be doing something. And so, as if there’s no place for choral music. But the Second Vatican Council spoke about Gregorian chant... but other forms of music... and it mentions specifically polyphony. Very few parishes can the people sing polyphony, but the Council acknowledges polyphony as suited to the liturgy.
So there is a place for choral music, because there’s a place for active listening. Listening should be an active thing. If listening were not active participation, we’d have to do away with lectors, and everyone would read all the readings at Mass. That should be pretty absurd. So there is a place for active listening. It’s all about engaging the people.
Ishmael Adibuah: As a final question for you, Your Excellency... What do you hope will be the legacy of the Benedict XVI Institute?
Archbishop Cordileone: The legacy I hope for is reviving the high sacred art tradition that will then begin to influence how Mass is celebrated in parishes all throughout our country and all throughout the world. So I hope this will be... getting the church back on track with sacred beauty. The Church has always been the great patron of the arts... We need to get back on track with that.
And that’s what my memories are of these masses that I celebrate. They’re so deeply moving to me. I get a little bit embarrassed because so often I’m moved to tears because of their beauty. And I try to be stoic, but my Sicilian DNA isn’t very good at that. So I always come away renewed and confirmed in the faith.
Ishmael Adibuah: Right, and I imagine for anyone at these masses, it’d be hard not to shed a tear or two.
Well, Your Excellency, being cognizant of your time here, I want to thank you again for taking the time to talk to me. The reason I really wanted this interview was to offer all of you this liturgical renewal that is happening from institutes such as the Benedict XVI Institute, and to invite you to go deeper in your faith with the liturgy as your guide.
Well, Excellency, thank you again for your time. Hopefully, this renewal that you’re at the forefront of leading with the Benedict XVI Institute will continue and hopefully lead to a true Eucharistic revival in our country. Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone, thank you so much.
Archbishop Cordileone: You’re welcome.
You can find out more about the Benedict XVI Institute by visiting their website at www.benedictinstitute.org
